JTS to NRL; the Titans juniors transition lounge

[Hail Sezer]

Up front, I want to pay respects to a great Qlder, Paul Green. It's very hard to believe he's no longer with us. I wish his family and friends well and hope their grief doesn't knock them around too much.

Secondly, I want to thank mdrew for all his great info on our juniors and how diligent he is about it. I also want to ask you, mdrew, as well as everyone else on here, who you think from our juniors yet to play NRL, will be regulars in our side next year and in 2024?

We have a few extra spots in our 30 for this year and we have 12 players (or very close) off contract at the end of next season. It's a great opportunity for renewal and really important that we get this right. We have to prioritise our juniors and give them every chance and it would be terrible to lose any of them if we underestimate them and buy someone in to play in front of them.

We have been skinny in the centres and second row for years and it might be possible to sign Tass and/or Milne, Angus Crichton and Jack Murchie for next season. Are there any juniors who would be ahead of these guys for next year? Kleiss and Alick sound like they might be already but hard to tell without seeing them each week. Jojo might also make be a better centre than the options above but we'll also need depth in the squad.

In terms of depth, I'm sorry HS but I think Turpin might be a good one year signing on minimum or close.

2024 brings exciting recruitment opportunities. Robson will be off contract and I think he's worth chasing.
In the centres, Averillo, Ramien and Farnsworth will be off contract. Will we have better than them already and enough depth there?
Second rowers: Nanai, Wilton, Gilbert; will be available and middles: Neame, NAS and Kobe Hetherington, too.

I'm a big fan of Adam Douehi as a value clubman and other halves off contract at the end of 2023 will be Munster, Burton and Sam Walker. I'm reluctant to mention these expensive halves because the talk is that Weaver will be a gun and Toby will come along after this year. BUT Foran will likely retire after his two years with us. We will still need experience in our spine, so one of these would be very nice to have in the team. I was excited to see Fuller training with the squad earlier in the year and hope that he'll rehab well and become a great running 6 but you guys have seen a lot more of our juniors so really interested in your opinions.

What do you guys think?

Hey mate, thanks for your post.

In terms of juniors who will be regulars, it's really impossible to say and put a timeline on IMO. Some positions translate quicker from juniors > cup > NRL than others and it's dependant on both the players development as well as what their pathway looks like. Next year I don't think anyone will go from not featuring at all this year to playing NRL every week, but I do think Klese Haas is a certainty to debut at some stage, and I'd expect Iszac Fa'asuamaleaui, Lofi Khan-Pereira, Tony Francis to get the chance at top level too. Tom Weaver will be pushing for an opportunity but needs to put some size on IMO and improve defensively. 18 year old Kaleb Ngamanu (centre/wing) could be a smokey. There's plenty more after that but it's too early to get a fair assessment on a players progression timeline without seeing how they fare in Qcup week in, week out. Keano Kini, Josiah Pahulu and Arama Hau are the three from this years U18 group who I think will progress the quickest but further up the chain we've also got the likes of Bryant, De Groot and Sikahele in the U20 group who are yet to prove themselves in Qcup.

None of those players you mention really excite me, I mean Chrichton would be great but we don't have 800k to throw at another backrower so that won't happen, we're already over-capitalised there. Haas and Alick along with Vuna will provide depth in the backrow for 2023. In terms of centres, I think with Jojo, Treymain Spry, and teenagers Tony Francis and Kaleb Ngamanu who are both playing cup, we've got enough of a pipeline to put pressure on our current starters. Signing a centre with some experience to help defensively would also be preferred but they're hard to come across at an affordable salary.

Regarding Turpin - if you're saying he might be good on a minimum contract then yeah I said similar and do agree. Although if we're paying more than that and giving up a top 30 spot to a Qcup quality hooker who can only play hooker and doesn't have the benefit of future development, it doesn't make too much sense IMO. Can better allocate those funds and that spot.

Robson is a great player but for mine makes no sense if we've just signed Verrils. Looking at those other positions for 2024 is probably a bit premature I think mate as we don't know who else we will sign before then, and who will develop and progress from within. In an ideal world all of our JTS boys go on to become immortals and we never need to sign anyone external ever again..haha. I will say though - I think by the end of 2024, the club will make a call to keep either Weaver or Sexton. Both of their current contracts expire at this time and I don't believe it'll make sense to keep them both on the roster.

[MaroonTitan]

Thanks guys. I trust your judgement. You always make sense to me. I appreciate how hard it is to see into the future with so many variables in the lives of our young players.

So what I'm learning from you is that there is no need to make another purchase for the near future, unless something goes horribly wrong with injuries or other clubs buying our juniors under our noses. Hopefully those things don't happen and we save heaps on recruitment that we can then spend to sharpen up our coaching. If we've got the right stuff coming through, we just need the right coaching. It's a really exciting prospect.

Probably the biggest immediate question is whether or not to release Herman and Esarn to make space for our juniors next year. It's no doubt a difficult balance. From what you've said above, it seems to me that De Groot, Kini, Fuller and Ngumanu deserve Development contracts (although you didn't mention Fuller, I'm making an assumption here. Y/N?). The danger being that if we don't offer those contracts, they could be signed under our nose. If we keep Herman and Esarn, two of those would miss out. We might need to keep Herman just to better balance the number of forwards in the squad.

If we do release those two, based on your advice, I'm listing my 30 for 2023 based on current contracts and guys that are recommended to step up. I'll try and do this with a first 17 for Round 1.

1. JC
2. GM
3. Brimo
4. Jojo
5. Sami
6. Foran
7. Boyd
8. Mo
9. Verills
10. Tino
11. Dave
12. Beau
13. Clark
14. Mac
15. Alick
16. Joliffe
17. Liu

18. Toby
19. Kelly
20. Turner
21. Francis
22. Haas
23. CT
24. Lisone
25. Vuna
26. Weaver
27. AKP
28. Iszac F
29. Herbert
30. Spry

Are you happy with this for 2023? Can we play finals with this side or at least get close?

Then based on whatever happens next year, if the Development players go well and come into the top squad for 2024, players like: Pahulu, Liyou, Murray, Bryant, Sikahele and Ryan Foran can fight it out to replace them. If so, we'd be looking at releasing CT, Herbert, Kelly, Turner, Mac and Dave if he wants the same money. That would also enable us to get Booth back into the squad for 2024 if fit and Arama Hau if he's ready.

It hurts me to think about releasing good players that have great attitudes and put in for our club but if we're going on talent and potential alone, we'll have to release some of them.

Does all that make sense to you? What do you think? I might be a bit unbalanced with Forwards/backs in the squad each year as I notice my Dev players are all backs for 2023 and all forwards for 2024. You'll have a better appreciation of how to mix that up.

[jacksonm]

Thanks guys. I trust your judgement. You always make sense to me. I appreciate how hard it is to see into the future with so many variables in the lives of our young players.

So what I'm learning from you is that there is no need to make another purchase for the near future, unless something goes horribly wrong with injuries or other clubs buying our juniors under our noses. Hopefully those things don't happen and we save heaps on recruitment that we can then spend to sharpen up our coaching. If we've got the right stuff coming through, we just need the right coaching. It's a really exciting prospect.

Probably the biggest immediate question is whether or not to release Herman and Esarn to make space for our juniors next year. It's no doubt a difficult balance. From what you've said above, it seems to me that De Groot, Kini, Fuller and Ngumanu deserve Development contracts (although you didn't mention Fuller, I'm making an assumption here. Y/N?). The danger being that if we don't offer those contracts, they could be signed under our nose. If we keep Herman and Esarn, two of those would miss out. We might need to keep Herman just to better balance the number of forwards in the squad.

If we do release those two, based on your advice, I'm listing my 30 for 2023 based on current contracts and guys that are recommended to step up. I'll try and do this with a first 17 for Round 1.

1. JC
2. GM
3. Brimo
4. Jojo
5. Sami
6. Foran
7. Boyd
8. Mo
9. Verills
10. Tino
11. Dave
12. Beau
13. Clark
14. Mac
15. Alick
16. Joliffe
17. Liu

18. Toby
19. Kelly
20. Turner
21. Francis
22. Haas
23. CT
24. Lisone
25. Vuna
26. Weaver
27. AKP
28. Iszac F
29. Herbert
30. Spry

Are you happy with this for 2023? Can we play finals with this side or at least get close?

Then based on whatever happens next year, if the Development players go well and come into the top squad for 2024, players like: Pahulu, Liyou, Murray, Bryant, Sikahele and Ryan Foran can fight it out to replace them. If so, we'd be looking at releasing CT, Herbert, Kelly, Turner, Mac and Dave if he wants the same money. That would also enable us to get Booth back into the squad for 2024 if fit and Arama Hau if he's ready.

It hurts me to think about releasing good players that have great attitudes and put in for our club but if we're going on talent and potential alone, we'll have to release some of them.

Does all that make sense to you? What do you think? I might be a bit unbalanced with Forwards/backs in the squad each year as I notice my Dev players are all backs for 2023 and all forwards for 2024. You'll have a better appreciation of how to mix that up.

Like this year I think the squad is short in back row forwards

[Hail Sezer]

Thanks guys. I trust your judgement. You always make sense to me. I appreciate how hard it is to see into the future with so many variables in the lives of our young players.

So what I'm learning from you is that there is no need to make another purchase for the near future, unless something goes horribly wrong with injuries or other clubs buying our juniors under our noses. Hopefully those things don't happen and we save heaps on recruitment that we can then spend to sharpen up our coaching. If we've got the right stuff coming through, we just need the right coaching. It's a really exciting prospect.

Probably the biggest immediate question is whether or not to release Herman and Esarn to make space for our juniors next year. It's no doubt a difficult balance. From what you've said above, it seems to me that De Groot, Kini, Fuller and Ngumanu deserve Development contracts (although you didn't mention Fuller, I'm making an assumption here. Y/N?). The danger being that if we don't offer those contracts, they could be signed under our nose. If we keep Herman and Esarn, two of those would miss out. We might need to keep Herman just to better balance the number of forwards in the squad.

If we do release those two, based on your advice, I'm listing my 30 for 2023 based on current contracts and guys that are recommended to step up. I'll try and do this with a first 17 for Round 1.

1. JC
2. GM
3. Brimo
4. Jojo
5. Sami
6. Foran
7. Boyd
8. Mo
9. Verills
10. Tino
11. Dave
12. Beau
13. Clark
14. Mac
15. Alick
16. Joliffe
17. Liu

18. Toby
19. Kelly
20. Turner
21. Francis
22. Haas
23. CT
24. Lisone
25. Vuna
26. Weaver
27. AKP
28. Iszac F
29. Herbert
30. Spry

Are you happy with this for 2023? Can we play finals with this side or at least get close?

Then based on whatever happens next year, if the Development players go well and come into the top squad for 2024, players like: Pahulu, Liyou, Murray, Bryant, Sikahele and Ryan Foran can fight it out to replace them. If so, we'd be looking at releasing CT, Herbert, Kelly, Turner, Mac and Dave if he wants the same money. That would also enable us to get Booth back into the squad for 2024 if fit and Arama Hau if he's ready.

It hurts me to think about releasing good players that have great attitudes and put in for our club but if we're going on talent and potential alone, we'll have to release some of them.

Does all that make sense to you? What do you think? I might be a bit unbalanced with Forwards/backs in the squad each year as I notice my Dev players are all backs for 2023 and all forwards for 2024. You'll have a better appreciation of how to mix that up.

Herman and Esan are both off-contract so won't need to be released - they'll just not be re-signed.

Just to quickly clarify - each club has 30 top roster spots, and 6 development contracts, which makes up their full-time squad. Outside of that, a player (not full time) can be contracted to a junior/pathway/academy contract (in our case this is our JTS - Junior Titans Squad or Future Titans as they now call it). A player can be upgraded to a development contract for a future year, e.g. Jaylan De Groot who has signed to be upgraded to development in 2024 (he will be 20/21 at this stage). Sometimes to safeguard the best talent, a club will offer them a development contract straight out of high school, as the Titans did with Weaver and I believe also have done with Kini for next year. Another method the club will use is to give JTS players a train and trial contract, where they train with first grade in pre-season, and then part-time throughout the year, but are not contracted to a Development or Top 30 contract. I'm trying not to overcomplicate it but sorry if I am!

Of that 30 you've named, I believe Francis, Weaver and Iszac F will still be 3/6 on Dev for 2023. This could be wrong if some have been upgraded.

So again on that distinction between development and JTS, Foran and Liyou are currently JTS and will be top 30 in 2024. Jaylan De Groot will be development in 2024. The rest are currently JTS (with the excepion of Murray who is just with Tweed) but I believe Kini is locked in to development from 2023.

I wouldn't suggest the club releases an established, regular contributing NRL player for the promise of a potential junior in any case, and it's how the Titans utilise the pathway system without over-committig (or under-committing and losing them) that will determine whether the mentioned players progress to being part of the full-time NRL squad with the Titans.

For reference, here is how NRL.com lists the contract breakdown: https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/01/27/...-clubs/#titans which is updated every year. This of course won't show players contracted part-time, JTS guys, etc.

We'll still be making a few signings before 2023 for NRL ready players from other clubs and we need to. I also think a few could be tapped and asked to leave over the off-season, but theres nothing to support that - just my thoughts

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Right on cue:

https://www.titans.com.au/news/2022/...nt-for-future/

Foran and Liyou top 30 in 2024, De Groot development in 2024 (which we already knew).

All will be joiing for pre-season in 2023 and I assume will be part-time throughout the season. They could be promoted at a later date, but note this does not make them NRL eligible for 2023.

[mdrew]

I have been watching Ben Liyou play since he was 13 and playing with the Grafton Ghosts so I am wrapped to see him get his opportunity with the Titans.

[Bayside Titan]

I think possible 5 on our list could be tapped on the shoulder for next year.

[Whats Doing]

As I mentioned previously, with Wallace gone, Ese Ese likely to not be resigned and I would be tapping Lisone on the shoulder, we will need a top tier and a middle tier front rower for next year as one of the priorities together with a quality number 7. Let Sexton earn his spot rather than gifting it to him on a platter with no quality back up.

[Titanic]

WD your comment about Sexton, and I add Campbell, is precisely why Holbrook needs to take a good hard look at himself. Young blokes, particularly teen stars who have no experience of life or adversity, need to earn their stripes. We are not helping us or them by gifting them NRL slots.

[MaroonTitan]

Thanks for explaining all that HS. I really appreciate it.

The numbers raise a few questions though. I think we have announced 6 Dev players for 2023, in the following: De Groot, Kini, Weaver, Francis, Liyou, R.Foran. Does that mean that Francis will likely go into the 30 or Iszac F will?

Also with those Dev players that I had in my 30 above, it leaves four spaces in our 30 (or two if we don't resign Ese Ese and Marsters). Does Spry come back into the 30 next year? Or would he swap out for Francis into the 30 if he needs more time to get back to where he was as a Dev player?
What about Fuller? Where does he fit in?

Given Booth doesn't play next year and isn't signed, do we try and find a job at the club for him somewhere and reassess in 2024?

[Hail Sezer]

WD your comment about Sexton, and I add Campbell, is precisely why Holbrook needs to take a good hard look at himself. Young blokes, particularly teen stars who have no experience of life or adversity, need to earn their stripes. We are not helping us or them by gifting them NRL slots.

Not saying you're wrong T but just to unpack that a bit, how do we determine someone has earned their stripes? For mine, Campbell and Sexton did exactly that by performing well in Qcup beyond their age and earned the next step up in the same fashion as any other young player from any other team did. Neither are teenagers either - Sexton is 21 and JC is 22. The only teenage debutant we've got is Jojo, who's shown hes more than capable by earning it again.

If you're referring moreso to continued selection then I'm with you on Sexton although with Boyd as the only backup, it presents to me as much as a roster issue as a week to week selection one. I can't help but feel bad for Sexton being thrown in like he was.

On JC...I'm not convinced his defensive deficiencies are as detrimental as most on here say, or any worse than Walsh, Drinkwater, or even RTS early in his career..but that's just my opinion It's also worth remembering he didn't walk back into first grade after his injury and poor form either. He was sent to Qcup for a few weeks, performed well, came back up and beat the dragons for us. In saying all this, I do understand we have a better fullback in the squad - he's just wearing the number 6 most weeks lol

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As I mentioned previously, with Wallace gone, Ese Ese likely to not be resigned and I would be tapping Lisone on the shoulder, we will need a top tier and a middle tier front rower for next year as one of the priorities together with a quality number 7. Let Sexton earn his spot rather than gifting it to him on a platter with no quality back up.

Yep I'm with you WD. I don't think we've got the cap for a top tier middle given we're heavily invested there with Mo, Tino and to an extent Liu, but a low-mid ranger or 2 to complement our current middles is essential. Another NRL ready 7 I also agree with if it is cost effective

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Thanks for explaining all that HS. I really appreciate it.

The numbers raise a few questions though. I think we have announced 6 Dev players for 2023, in the following: De Groot, Kini, Weaver, Francis, Liyou, R.Foran. Does that mean that Francis will likely go into the 30 or Iszac F will?

Also with those Dev players that I had in my 30 above, it leaves four spaces in our 30 (or two if we don't resign Ese Ese and Marsters). Does Spry come back into the 30 next year? Or would he swap out for Francis into the 30 if he needs more time to get back to where he was as a Dev player?
What about Fuller? Where does he fit in?

Given Booth doesn't play next year and isn't signed, do we try and find a job at the club for him somewhere and reassess in 2024?

Of those, only Weaver and Francis are on 2023 Dev deals, and I recall Iszac F saying he is also (although not confirmed). Kini hasn't been pubicly confirmed either. Liyou and Foran aren't Dev next year, they're top 30 in 2024. De Groot is Dev in 2024.

Yep good question about Spry and Francis mate. I think Spry goes into the 30, and Francis may find himself promoted too based on his Qcup form. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Fuller is a tough one because his leg break was bad..he's not really going to get the chance to show he can play at the standard he was before he got injured, as brutal as that sounds.

I'd love to keep Booth around as i think he's the ultimate clubman. That injury is horrific though, and will be a long recovery process for him. Really awful after how hard he worked to be back in the NRL

[Whats Doing]

There is wide spread speculation that the cap next year will go to $12 million which is a significant increase in this year which if it happens gives us plenty of wriggle room for a marquee player preferably a prop to help out Tino and Mo who has really regressed this year. Looking at the DT, Wallace was on $700k this year (another overpriced hack) which should be used to recruit a quality prop.

[Hail Sezer]

There is wide spread speculation that the cap next year will go to $12 million which is a significant increase in this year which if it happens gives us plenty of wriggle room for a marquee player preferably a prop to help out Tino and Mo who has really regressed this year. Looking at the DT, Wallace was on $700k this year (another overpriced hack) which should be used to recruit a quality prop.

Yeah WD I see it where you’re coming from, just need to keep in mind if it stays at 30 players on the top roster then what you’ll generally see is the the median increasing and certain players stretching to higher salaries as opposed to clubs opting to expand spending on certain position groups. I think Wallace’s salary had us in the red for spend on middles and him leaving has brought us back into the green.

Can absolutely see the benefit of adding a top tier middle though

[Titanic]

@HS guaranteeing Sexton and Campbell 6 and 1 before the season, and releasing Fogarty (no matter his limitations) and moving the incumbent 1 (and an Origin player) without deposing either of them is what I mean. Blooding players is one thing placing them on a pedestal prematurely is another, just my opinion.

[Hail Sezer]

@HS guaranteeing Sexton and Campbell 6 and 1 before the season, and releasing Fogarty (no matter his limitations) and moving the incumbent 1 (and an Origin player) without deposing either of them is what I mean. Blooding players is one thing placing them on a pedestal prematurely is another, just my opinion.

Yeah I don't disagree with that really, the perspective I'm offering (moreso to Sexton) is the liability that falls on the recruitment and retention decisions as a precursor for the week to week selection problems that the coaching staff were left with. Letting Fogarty go without securing a proper replacement is very on-brand Titans sadly.

JC being given first crack at the 1 and AJ moving is a different discussion to the Sexton v no-one for the 7 conundrum IMO, but hey, it's all gonna be blown up and patched back together somehow for '23 anyway

[mdrew]

Lofi Khan-Pereira with four tries and a try assist today in a tough loss for Burleigh in the Queensland Cup against the Mackay Cutters.