NRL Expansion

[DIEHARD]

Yea Ryan, player stocks is one of the biggest issues with two new teams.

Have to bring alot back from Super League.

But more teams does increase the fire power overall that Rugby League has ti keep stars. But it does mean spreading them out between teams.

As Pete says there is a a Rugby League community in Perth and there are WA juniors in the NRL. If admitted the Reds and whoever else should be given HM, SGBall and NYC teams.

[onlooker]

Thats definitely a good point.
Also, another aspect of that to consider - thats another 50 first grade players that the competition would have to come up with. For those two new teams to be competitive, alot of those players will have to be experienced ones poached from other clubs, which will dilute the quality player pool in one big hit.

Not really when you consider there are over 100 former NRL players in the ESL. Most of them forced out of the NRL because of lack of positions in the NRL.
Then you put GI into the equation. He wants to stay in League but can't find a home (without going into detail). Look at the truck load of players that left Melbourne this year for season 2011 in the ESL, then count the players that leave to Union. The likes of Cooper Vuna and Will Chambers.

We could easily fill another two clubs with player talent.

[onlooker]

Yea Ryan, player stocks is one of the biggest issues with two new teams.

Have to bring alot back from Super League.

But more teams does increase the fire power overall that Rugby League has ti keep stars. But it does mean spreading them out between teams.

As Pete says there is a a Rugby League community in Perth and there are WA juniors in the NRL. If admitted the Reds and whoever else should be given HM, SGBall and NYC teams.

In regards to the NYC, all NRL teams need to provide a NYC team. That would help out the Reds the most, so many juniors over there that don't get a chance. Some are able to slip themselves into a position like the Goodwin brothers (but had there father to help), Cory Patterson, Lee Te Maari and more plus the newest one Curtis Rona ho was picked up by the Roosters. You should see him in the NYC this year.

I'm sure that a lot just don't a opportunity to make the NRL and the NYC will help with that for the WA Reds.

The WA Reds already have a SG Ball team and the Bears already have a NSW Cup team, SG Ball team and HM cup team along with the Central Coast Centurions who also play in the SG Ball and HW Cup.

I don't think the Centurions are connected to the Newcastle Knights in any way outside of the NSW cup.

[Ryan]

Not really when you consider there are over 100 former NRL players in the ESL. Most of them forced out of the NRL because of lack of positions in the NRL.
Then you put GI into the equation. He wants to stay in League but can't find a home (without going into detail). Look at the truck load of players that left Melbourne this year for season 2011 in the ESL, then count the players that leave to Union. The likes of Cooper Vuna and Will Chambers.

We could easily fill another two clubs with player talent.

Name at least 50 NRL players in the ESL that aren't retirees looking for extra $$ and would still be competitive in the NRL. There would be a few, but nowhere near enough to field two teams.
GI is a twat. He had several high paying options including the Titans. He had a decent agreement with the Donkey's in which he pissed it back in their face.
As it is now, there aren't enough quality halves to go around. Teams are begging worn out players like Kimmorely & Barrett to put off retirement so they can fill the gap.

[DIEHARD]

Yea sorry, I stupidly forgot about the Reds SG Ball, which they brought in after pulling out of the BR Cup.

The situation with the Newcastle Knights and the Centurions defies logic and makes my brain hurt.

[onlooker]

Yea sorry, I stupidly forgot about the Reds SG Ball, which they brought in after pulling out of the BR Cup.

Yes, WA Reds pulled out of the BR cup after the NRL told them it would be in their best interest to focus on Juniors rather then senior players.

The situation with the Newcastle Knights and the Centurions defies logic and makes my brain hurt.

yeah well we can forget about that partnership due to this thread being about expansion lol.

[onlooker]

Name at least 50 NRL players in the ESL that aren't retirees looking for extra $$ and would still be competitive in the NRL. There would be a few, but nowhere near enough to field two teams.
GI is a twat. He had several high paying options including the Titans. He had a decent agreement with the Donkey's in which he pissed it back in their face.
As it is now, there aren't enough quality halves to go around. Teams are begging worn out players like Kimmorely & Barrett to put off retirement so they can fill the gap.

Alrighty i haven't got time to go through the European Super league teams. But i did find this.

Bradford: Beaver, Glen Morrison, Solomona

Castleford: Rangi Chase, Mitchell Sargeant, Sherwin, Widders, Faumauina

Catalans: Greenshields, Bell, Mogg, Perry, Mcguire, Croker,

Celtic: Hannay, O'Hara, Withers, Peek, Bryant. Chalk

Harlequins: Randall, Williams, Robinson, Heckenburg

Huddersfield: Hodgson, Faiumu, Lolesi,

Hull FC: Tony Byrne, Berrigan, Cusack,

Hull Kingston Rovers: Webster, Dobson, Newton, Galea, Vella

Leeds: Webb, Donald, Leuluai, Buderus, Lauititi

Salford: Henry, Talau, Cashmere, Jer Smith, Stapleton, Phil Leuluai, Stapleton, Swain, Robbie Paul, Holdsworth

St. Helens: Gidley, Meli, Cayless, Flannery, Puleatua

Wakefield: Peterson, Drew, Stosic, Latu,

Warrington: Carney, King, Morley, M and J Monaghan, Rauhihi, Louis and Vinnie Anderson, Hicks,

Wigan: Roberts, Richards, Carmont, Palae'asina, Phil Bailey

I counted 73 players there (that could be slighty off).

In Bold are the ones i think could either still be making the NRL or left the NRL too soon.

Then you add the players that left to Super league this year below:

Luke Patten (Salford Reds, ESL), Blake Green (Hull KR, ESL), Brett Kelly (French Elite Championship), Joel Monaghan (Warrignton, ESL), Ben Farrar (Catalan Dragons, ESL), Jeff Lima (Wigan Warriors, ESL), Ryan Hoffman (Wigan Warriors, ESL), Brett Finch (Wigan Warriors, ESL), Scott Dureau (Catalan Dragons, ESL) Ben Cross (Leeds Rhinos), Luke O'Donnell (Huddersfield Giants - ESL), Lopini Paea (Catalan Dragons, ESL), Nick Kouparitsis (London Harlequins), Ian Henderson (Catalan Dragons, ESL).

Again, The ones in bold imo could play on.

Union leavers below:
Josh Graham
Cooper Vuna
Jarrod Saffy

Again, The ones in bold imo could play on.

[Ryan]

Alrighty i haven't got time to go through the European Super league teams. But i did find this.
I counted 73 players there (that could be slighty off).
In Bold are the ones i think could either still be making the NRL or left the NRL too soon.

I said quality players who were'nt retiring. Out of the players you bolded, I deleted the guys who were already retired, on the wrong side of 30, or already back in the NRL:

Castleford: Rangi Chase, Widders, Faumauina
Catalans: Greenshields, Perry, Mcguire
Celtic: O'Hara, Withers, Bryant
Harlequins: Randall, Heckenburg
Huddersfield: Faiumu, Lolesi
Hull FC: Berrigan
Hull Kingston Rovers: Webster
Salford: Cashmere, Jer Smith, Holdsworth
St. Helens: Flannery, Puleatua
Wakefield: Peterson, Latu,
Warrington: King, M Monaghan, Louis Anderson

Blake Green (Hull KR, ESL)
Brett Kelly (French Elite Championship)
Joel Monaghan (Warrignton, ESL)
Ben Farrar (Catalan Dragons, ESL)
Jeff Lima (Wigan Warriors, ESL)
Ryan Hoffman (Wigan Warriors, ESL)
Brett Finch (Wigan Warriors, ESL)
Scott Dureau (Catalan Dragons, ESL)
Luke O'Donnell (Huddersfield Giants - ESL)
Lopini Paea (Catalan Dragons, ESL)
Nick Kouparitsis (London Harlequins)
Ian Henderson (Catalan Dragons, ESL)

Cooper Vuna
Jarrod Saffy

40 players left, arguably only about 13 or so you would consider quality competitive NRL players in todays comp. The majority are players who couldn't attract a decent contract here - and were not forced out by salary cap pressure. The rest are has-beens who are about to hit 30yrs old, and be long gone before our comp expands. Not exactly the cream of the crop who everyone has been missing.....

[onlooker]

I said quality players who were'nt retiring. Out of the players you bolded, I deleted the guys who were already retired, on the wrong side of 30, or already back in the NRL:



40 players left, arguably only about 13 or so you would consider quality competitive NRL players in todays comp. The majority are players who couldn't attract a decent contract here - and were not forced out by salary cap pressure. The rest are has-beens who are about to hit 30yrs old, and be long gone before our comp expands. Not exactly the cream of the crop who everyone has been missing.....

You have left 39 players, each one arguably could play NRL next season. Saying that YOU think only 13 can is only your opinion.

[Ryan]

You have left 39 players, each one arguably could play NRL next season. Saying that YOU think only 13 can is only your opinion.

Yeh, 39 players that could play. Still a far cry from your 100+. But I said "quality competitive NRL players in todays comp". Big difference. The concern was two extra teams diluting the talent pool - having to spread the quality players over an extra two teams. Bringing back rubbish players from the ESL that could play, doesn't help that cause.

[onlooker]

Yeh, 39 players that could play. Still a far cry from your 100+. But I said "quality competitive NRL players in todays comp". Big difference. The concern was two extra teams diluting the talent pool - having to spread the quality players over an extra two teams. Bringing back rubbish players from the ESL that could play, doesn't help that cause.

When i say 'could' i mean players that would be competitive. You are forgetting that the two new teams will have a new and unique area to pick juniors from. I originally said that there were 100 players in superleague that were former NRL players and most could (be competitive) playing in the NRL. Perhaps not most of them but a high number of them, 39 to be exact. Plus between now and 2013 how many players with debut in the NRL?

The concern of diluting the competition by adding more teams has been around since 1908, and a major reason why a lot of the people that were against expansion last time were against it. But the Titans have proved that it does not dilute the competition.

[Ryan]

When i say 'could' i mean players that would be competitive..

Thats funny! You honestly think half those guys could attract an NRL contract even if they wanted to? Sure it's a matter of opinion, but that is hilarious

The concern of diluting the competition by adding more teams has been around since 1908, and a major reason why a lot of the people that were against expansion last time were against it. But the Titans have proved that it does not dilute the competition.

Try telling that to the numerous clubs still looking for decent halves combinations. Panthers lost Campbell and Gower in that one year period and have struggled with a halves combination since. Tigers went from Premiers to 4 successive seasons outside the top 8 after Prince left. Ironically, their first finals appearance in 5 years came on the back of their only dominant half actually playing a full season.

As of 2010, Titans had four 1st class Halves in Prince, Rogers, Campbell & Bird. Only about 3 other clubs had quality & stable halves combinations. As of next year most of the clubs will only have one decent half, and there'll be at least 6 clubs that will have to field a two inexperienced halves. Even without injuries taken into consideration, the competition is already stretched in the most crucial positons in the game.
How many of the players in the ESL have been offered contracts in the NRL for this position? None. Why? Cause they are no better than the 2nd rate fill-ins that are already in the country!

[onlooker]

Thats funny! You honestly think half those guys could attract an NRL contract even if they wanted to? Sure it's a matter of opinion, but that is hilarious

Yes .. it is hilarious.

Try telling that to the numerous clubs still looking for decent halves combinations. Panthers lost Campbell and Gower in that one year period and have struggled with a halves combination since. Tigers went from Premiers to 4 successive seasons outside the top 8 after Prince left. Ironically, their first finals appearance in 5 years came on the back of their only dominant half actually playing a full season.

As of 2010, Titans had four 1st class Halves in Prince, Rogers, Campbell & Bird. Only about 3 other clubs had quality & stable halves combinations. As of next year most of the clubs will only have one decent half, and there'll be at least 6 clubs that will have to field a two inexperienced halves. Even without injuries taken into consideration, the competition is already stretched in the most crucial positons in the game.
How many of the players in the ESL have been offered contracts in the NRL for this position? None. Why? Cause they are no better than the 2nd rate fill-ins that are already in the country!

High player turnover does not mean there is a low quality of players. One high profile clubs has 3 first grade halves for next season with 2 promising junior halves pushing to get into a first grade team. Then you have players that are pushed out by clubs who have too many halfs, e.g. Wade graham forced out of Penrith.

What is your angle anyway?

Firstly you challenged me over the Bears and challenging me over player depth. Seems to me you just want to win a argument against me without having any real passion behind it.

[Ryan]

Yes .. it is hilarious.

High player turnover does not mean there is a low quality of players. One high profile clubs has 3 first grade halves for next season with 2 promising junior halves pushing to get into a first grade team. Then you have players that are pushed out by clubs who have too many halfs, e.g. Wade graham forced out of Penrith.

What is your angle anyway?

Firstly you challenged me over the Bears and challenging me over player depth. Seems to me you just want to win a argument against me without having any real passion behind it.

High turnover has nothing to do with it, my angle is that there aren't enough to go around in the first place. Wade Graham is only 20yrs old with less than 40 NRL games under his belt. Penriths remaining halfback Luke Walsh is only 3yrs older with an extra 15 games under his belt. While both are talented players with future potential, neither are experienced halves that a team would comfortably hinge their premiership chances on. Penrith's only other specialised half is Travis Burns at 5/8 - who wil be playing for his third club in as many years because he failed to impress at his previous two clubs. Penrith haven't had a quality halves pairing since Campbell and Gower left.

Secondly, you challenged me on this one. I responded to DIEHARD mentioning player quality being diluted - you jumped in and said no based on Australian ESL players coming back. I then replied by saying that the majority of Australians in the ESL are either retirees or low quality players that would not help the issue.

Perceiving me as arguing without any passion is just another piss-poor judgement in which you will learn otherwise in time(going by my posts in this thread, you should have already).

[onlooker]

High turnover has nothing to do with it, my angle is that there aren't enough to go around in the first place.

I thought your angle was about the Bears not being the only capable bid to set up without any NRL assistance.

The Super League has come closer and closer to the NRL in recent years with a few players that have played both saying there isn't that much difference between the competitions anymore apart from the intense media attention in the NRL. The players in the Super League could definitely make and be competitive in the NRL. Also the recent tide of English players coming here like Ellis, Flanagan and the two Burgess brothers. There is also talk of Sam Tomkins, Kyle Eastmond and James Graham coming to the NRL, there will definitely be able to fill at least another two teams.