Should Sonny be allowed to play Origin?

[Warrior00]

This is a very interesting topic. I can see it from both sides.

For me there is a huge difference between a NZ born player who has come through the junior representative ranks in Australia (like Sonny Bell) who wants to play State Of Origin at senior level and that of NZer who comes to Aussie has a couple of good seasons in the NRL and then wants to play in State Of Origin. The former, I believe yes they should be up for consideration, the later, no they shouldn't.

I think the biggest difference in this arguement is that for you Aussies this is about State Of Origin and for Kiwis this is about international football. Us Kiwis will always play second (sometimes third) fiddle to Australia in the international arena. Its only every now and then that the Kiwis pull of some great surprise and upset. One of Sonny Bell's points was that NZ lacks any top level representative games prior to any end of season test series. Australian players have up to four, if you include City v Country. State Of Origin has become the top level of representative league in the world and its only natural for any player to strive to play at the higgest level possible, the trouble is that some players who are eligable to play for NZ (like Karmichael Hunt) are forced to turn down the opportunity to play for their country of birth in order to have the opportunity to play State of Origin, I see this as really unfair. NRL clubs have a long history and association with NZ clubs in finding young talent, it makes sense to get these players young and into the Aussie system as soon as possible to develope any talent. However why should NZ be disadvantaged at international level by allowing young players to develope under Australian coachs, clubs, etc? Afterall Willie Mason, Toni Carroll & Karmichael Hunt are all NZ born players who could of played for NZ (well Carroll did - but since then he is back playing for Aussie).

I guess the answer lies in at what age is considered as their first senior game in a state. Regardless of whether a player is a NZer or Aussie then if they play that game at that age then they should be eligable for selection for that State. If its some dude who was developed in New Zealand and stepped of the plane and made his debut in the NRL as a twenty somethiing then definately the NZ player should not be eligable for selection.

[Helen]

This is from the ARL (Australian Rugby League) site.
http://www.australianrugbyleague.com.au/

Realising the implications of these increasingly one-sided contests, Queensland supremo Senator Ron Macauliffe devised the audacious plan of having players represent the state with which they had first played senior football.

Since 1982, the interstate series has been based purely on the lines set down by Senator McAuliffe and Kevin Humphreys and is one of the greatest sporting events on the sporting calendar for all Australians each year.

Sonny Bill should be allowed to play. End of story.

Helen

[C-Whiz]

Sonny Bill should be allowed to play. End of story.

Helen

I always love how people find some small reference to a topic and decide based on one quote taken 25 years ago that that is how it should be interpreted forever.

I would be prepared to say that in this day and age that statement would be up for consideration and maybe this is a good time to debate a new format for eligibility criteria for SOO selection.

I doubt Ron McCauliffe would staunchly stand by that statement in todays version of the game, without qualifying it somewhat. I would say he was talking from a State versus State point of view, looking at the players being produced by the State, not ring-ins who could qulaify through technicalities that come from other countries. That is my opinion.

Look at the history of League in just the past 25 years, and obviously it has changed enormously. The point of that statement back then was to help produce the even contest we have come to know today. I am sure Kiwi imports were the last thing on his mind. Don't get me started on Super League.

[C-Whiz]

[QUOTE=Warrior00;218374]

For me there is a huge difference between a NZ born player who has come through the junior representative ranks in Australia (like Sonny Bell) who wants to play State Of Origin at senior level and that of NZer who comes to Aussie has a couple of good seasons in the NRL and then wants to play in State Of Origin. The former, I believe yes they should be up for consideration, the later, no they shouldn't.

This is a good, valid point, and I wonder too if maybe there should be an age cap for junior league players to be eligible. I started a thread for eligibility for Rep footy, and posted same comments.

I think the biggest difference in this arguement is that for you Aussies this is about State Of Origin and for Kiwis this is about international football.

Too right mate! And we don't want Origin to be diluted away from what it is meant to be. State pride!

I agree with most of what you say, but as you stated, Aussies (mainly Qld'ers and NSW'men) have a distinctly different idea of what SOO is about. Foreigners see it simply as top level Rugby League. The same as an Aussie being able to do a Haka doesn't fill them with Maori pride, pulling on a SOO jersey won't fill you with State pride if you aren't bred into it, IMO.

[C-Whiz]

NO... on the simple basis that SOO is not just a great spectacle... it's also something for every boy in the bush or city of QLD and NSW to dream about as a kid of playing in... and if Islanders take spots, then the dream is shattered.

QLD'ers ask why we play City vs Country in NSW.. it's for that same reason, sure it doesn't rate so highly and it ain't that great a match at times, but it's the fact that it gives the country kids something to believe in, to aim for, that's why it's there.

Rugby League is all about childhood dreams and boys dreams becoming men's oddessys.

If the NZ players want to play origin, make their own teams from South and North Islands and have their own series so kids in NZ can aspire to that... but don't ruin the dream.... never ruin the dream...

This is a great post, because it raises the point of City vs Country, which I have always understood to be the basis of the NSW selection process. So, before we even get into playing for NSW, what about qualifying for a City/Country spot?

And, also like BBW says, SOO is the pinnacle of dreams. Over the past decade or so we have seen Rugby League taken to the point of no return, only to rebuild itself. SOO is the one aspect of RL which should remain true to its core. If we spoil SOO, we have spoilt the heart of passion that drives young kids to represent their State, and the fans who stood by Australian RL through it's darkest hours.

[Steve]

yeah NSW
he played U/17 & U/19 for NSW so Gus Gould was keen on him playing for the Blues

Sounds to me like a certain state will do anything to get a certain Origin shield
back from a certain other state.... even if it means destroying the fabric of Origin football.
disgraceful
-

Adrian Lam?
Tony Carroll?
Karmichael Hunt?

[Steve]

Under the current rules, where you're born obviously doesn't matter.

So what country you play for at international level should make no difference in state of origin.

Tony Puletua plays for NZ, yet he not only played his first senior footy in NSW, he'd been living there since he was a toddler. Surely he's more eligible for NSW than Inglis is for Qld? (Not to say he'd get selected anyhow, but it's just an example)

It needs to be pure and simple.
Where you're born is where you represent at every level.

The only exception would be for the small countries such as Lebanon, Greece, USA, everywhere the game is developing. I think having NRL quality players represent those countries not only makes the international games a little more competitive, it gives the local players a chance to play against and besides the cream of the crop and improve those skills.

[C-Whiz]

Under the current rules, where you're born obviously doesn't matter.

So what country you play for at international level should make no difference in state of origin.


It needs to be pure and simple.
Where you're born is where you represent at every level.

The problem with that is what about poor little kiddies, born into a depressive NSW winter, escape to the Sunshine State when they are 2, and live here for the rest of their days,(one day retiring to the White Shoe Capital of Australia, aka the Gold Coast), after having moved through the local Qld footy teams before becoming a formidable Titans player on the verge of Origin glory? And admittedly, some 2 year olds on a drunken week-long bender might decide to move south to NSW, so it can go both ways, but you get my point. It's not always the kids fault he was born a NSW'man.

Maybe there should be a rule that you have to play a set amount of consecutive games in a state, and by a certain age? That way you have some loyalty to the state. Otherwise you are just a gun for hire.

[Steve]

The problem with that is what about poor little kiddies, born into a depressive NSW winter, escape to the Sunshine State when they are 2, and live here for the rest of their days,(one day retiring to the White Shoe Capital of Australia, aka the Gold Coast), after having moved through the local Qld footy teams before becoming a formidable Titans player on the verge of Origin glory? And admittedly, some 2 year olds on a drunken week-long bender might decide to move south to NSW, so it can go both ways, but you get my point. It's not always the kids fault he was born a NSW'man.

Maybe there should be a rule that you have to play a set amount of consecutive games in a state, and by a certain age? That way you have some loyalty to the state. Otherwise you are just a gun for hire.

And it's not Sonny Bill's fault the poor bastard was born in NZ but was lucky enough to grow up in the great state, New South Wales.

There's no reason Sonny Bill can't have pride in both the country he was born AND the state he grew up in.


How is it Khunt has pride in his origin jersey? He moved to Queensland as a teenager.

It should be where you're born. Solves it all.

[DIEHARD]

I find it strange that people will represent another country so easily. If I left Australia at a young age even at 5 years old and played a sport in a professional competition in another country and Australia needed and even asked for (Like NZ did in a lot of cases with NRL players) my allegiance, there is no way I'd turn them down.

I find it completely bizzare that a 15 year old can come over from New Zealand and throw away their allegiance so easily.

[C-Whiz]

And it's not Sonny Bill's fault the poor bastard was born in NZ but was lucky enough to grow up in the great state, New South Wales.

There's no reason Sonny Bill can't have pride in both the country he was born AND the state he grew up in.


How is it Khunt has pride in his origin jersey? He moved to Queensland as a teenager.

It should be where you're born. Solves it all.

That would be an easy fix, but it doesn't address the issue of where your allegiance lies. What concerns me, and maybe in a lot of ways SBW is the scapegoat in this situation, is that SOO will become diluted of it's passion and pride once you start getting "others" representing your state. There was a time when you supported your local club, and it had local players, and it was about local pride. Then they started moving away, chasing offers from bigger clubs. Then Qld'ers moved into Sydney to play in the National code. Now clubs buy and trade players as commodities. Loyalty is second to dollars. Most people, whether you want to admit it or not, support a team history at best, a memory at worst. Even jerseys are changed every year by some clubs just to rake up profits, so sometimes you don't even know what colours your team will have from one year to the next!

SOO is one of those things that has remained a constant, pretty much. No one messes with it, it's a formula that works. As Qld'ers there was uproar when they added some white stripes. We like it just the way it is. Everyone likes it just the way it is. My personal concern is once you start fiddling with it, it will get changed, and it will not be for the better. I don't see how SOO can get any better! We don't need "better" players to make it work. We don't need "internationals" to make it work. You can have ordinary players lift to a new level in origin colours. Look at the 1995 series. SOO works because it is built on State Pride, and you have your State against the other State, and that's just the way we like it. Once we start to adapt it just to suit players personal wants, we start to change what made it great in the first place. I don't want to see that happen.

[Steve]

You're disagreeing with me then proving my point in the same paragraph.

Exactly.
Look at 95. It was the passion that got Queensland home.
Since when was Khunt a Queenslander?
Lam? And don't give me that ****ing bull**** about no good Queensland halves. Since when was it about that? Since when did every team in the Queensland Cup not have a halfback?
That won't work? Remember when the Qld selectors picked some no name out of it to play halfback in Origin? Remember how much they were shouted down by picking this unknown little twit by the name of Allan Langer?


Queensland are already flouting the rules and have been for years. Then NSW considers it and everyone is up in arms? And it's NSW who are destroying the fabric of what origin represents?

[C-Whiz]

Queensland are already flouting the rules and have been for years. Then NSW considers it and everyone is up in arms? And it's NSW who are destroying the fabric of what origin represents?

Mate, i sort of agree with you. There has been a certain amount of licence taken with eligiblility in the past, for different reasons. I'm not a selector, so it's not up to me, and like any passionate Qld or NSW supporter, we want the best team we can muster. But I want to keep it as legit as possible. TBH though, it's this sort of jealous rivalry that has made it great! If you accept SBW, and then we beat you, it's just better for the Qld crowd.

It's not about SBW, it's about where do you draw the line? If he meets all the criteria, then great, he'll play and all his cuzzy-bro's living in Bondi will be there for him. There'll end up being more black and white than Blue around the Sydney grounds though. Who would consider SBW to be a NSW'man above being a Kiwi?

[Steve]

Mate, i sort of agree with you. There has been a certain amount of licence taken with eligiblility in the past, for different reasons. I'm not a selector, so it's not up to me, and like any passionate Qld or NSW supporter, we want the best team we can muster. But I want to keep it as legit as possible. TBH though, it's this sort of jealous rivalry that has made it great! If you accept SBW, and then we beat you, it's just better for the Qld crowd.

It's not about SBW, it's about where do you draw the line? If he meets all the criteria, then great, he'll play and all his cuzzy-bro's living in Bondi will be there for him. There'll end up being more black and white than Blue around the Sydney grounds though. Who would consider SBW to be a NSW'man above being a Kiwi?

I actually voted no in the poll.

That said.
Thorn. Hunt. Carroll. You guys are already doing well with having half a kiwi side. But apparently they're accepted as Queenslanders. And the NSW born and raised Inglis you're happy to take as a Queenslander too.

If Hunt at 15 can come to Australia and then 2 years later is a passionate Queenslander, you really have to wonder about his passion, loyalty and pride. Hell, I've probably lived in Queensland longer than he has, and I tell you what, I'm a blue for life.

To me the issue isn't even about Williams. Maybe we'll go the way of union with the reds and tah's just having whoever happens to be on contract with people swapping states.

[Ryan]

Thing with Hunt is that he's commited himself to Australia, not New Zealand.
There was no competition in the NZ team for the FB spot, yet he pledged to Australia even though he has to beat so many good Aussie FB's to make the Roo's squad. Same goes for his Origin spot. That say's to me he's a proud Australian\QLD'er.

Is SBW gonna give up his NZ spot? - I don't thinks so. How can you have pride in an Australian State when you play against the country?
You can't play both sides of the field.

I think the rules should be ammended to be clear and simple - Whats on your birth certificate!
Get rid of the loop holes with "My great Grandmother", "My first game was here" and "I've lived here for....."
Blue vs Marroon, no black infidels!